#043 - GREENGAGE

[phisheep]

I must, I think, thank Boaz for his excellent if slightly wayward judgement which leaves a new sprog in the chair.

I am very fond of the fruit of the black mulberry, and used to make a mean damson vodka, but at present I am particularly looking for a

GREENGAGE

mostly because it is a word that I don’t want to be there anytime I am in contention. You may assume, if you wish, that there is a GOOSEBERRY at 9d and a PLUM at 24a.

Judging will be Friday evening, which gives me about six days to work out what the hell Ximenean means. Or even how it is spelled.

Any shameless copying from #34 will probably be frowned upon, depending on how shameless it is.

Good luck and best wishes.

[Boaz]

'Plum' Wodehouse finally finishes new joke (9)
GREEN GAG+E
'Plum' of course being the nickname of the incomparable PG Wodehouse.

[anax]

Congratulations on a brilliant winning debut phisheep, and thank you for the latest challenge.

Here we jolly well go then:
Out of revenge five angry nurses prepare to throw fruit (9)
RE(v)ENGE* around GAG (prepare to throw)

[Prolixic]

Many thanks to Boaz for his kind words in the previous round. I don't envy Phisheep his role this week.

To the task in hand:

Fresh pot of jam, a potential source? (9)

Def: of jam, a potential source.

Word sum: Fresh = Green, Pot (marijuana) = gage according to Chambers.

[pepsib]

the choice is sweet, it's a simple guess I'd say

simple - green
guess - gauge (say)
def - the choice is sweet - i.e. choice meaning plum,

[Rishi]

Choice to leader of gang to take part again (9)

G + RE-ENGAGE. Choice is noun in surface reading, adj. as def. for word reqd.

[Prolixic]

Free range egg - one finally may be eaten? (9)

Def: may be eaten?

Free (anagrind) (range egg) + (on)e

Gardener oddly no good with mature tree? (9)

Def Tree? Greengage refers to both the fruit and the tree that produces it.

GaRdEnEr + NG (no good) + AGE (mature)

Olive's good time - to be taken to a WI jamming session, perhaps? (9)

Def: to be taken to a WI jamming session, perhaps? The Women's Institute are famous for their jam. The picture of a WI jamming session conjours up other images as well!

Olive = Green
(has) 's
Good = G
Time = Age

*** Edited - on reflection, the original "Olive has good time." did not read well and should have been "Olive has a good time" for a smoother surface reading. As the "a" does not contribute answer, I needed some way to remove it from the definition. ***

Author includes joke - a fruity one? (9)

Def: a fruity one?

(Graham) Green + gag +e

[pepsib]

the choice is sweet, it's a simple guess I'd say

simple - green
guess - gauge (say)
def - the choice is sweet - i.e. choice meaning plum,

thanks for the message Jim, as a novice i appreciate all the help, I have still got my thinking cap on here

[Old Scroat]

Before the start of every new wheeze, crazy Reg had English fruit (9).

GRE (crazy REG) before start of E(very) N(ew) GAG (wheeze) E(nglish) - definition fruit

[pepsib]

the choice is sweet, it's a simple guess I'd say

simple - green
guess - gauge (say)
def - the choice is sweet - i.e. choice meaning plum,

eating this becomes a common indicator perhaps that one is full

common - green
indicator - gauge - (perhaps -gage-)
def eating this

a green gauge shows that something eg petrol tank is full??

[pepsib]

the choice is sweet, it's a simple guess I'd say

simple - green
guess - gauge (say)
def - the choice is sweet - i.e. choice meaning plum,

eating this becomes a common indicator perhaps that one is full

common - green
indicator - gauge - (perhaps -gage-)
def eating this

a green gauge shows that something eg petrol tank is full??

not sure whats happened here? I still want the two clues to stand?? sorry

[anax]

You must have clicked Edit or Quote instead of Post Reply (which appears at the bottom of the page). Don't worry about it though - all of the clues will be considered.

[phisheep]

It's OK Mary, I have them both!

[Prolixic]

Reine Claude's "24" - "The Colour of the 9" (9)

Def: Reine Claude = Another name for the greengage.

24 and 9 refer to the existing solutions "Plum" and "Gooseberry" that phisheep kindly gave us. The resulting clue substituting the answers gives "Reine Claude is a plum the colour of the gooseberry."

[Boaz]

Before the start of every new wheeze, crazy Reg had English fruit (9).

GRE (crazy REG) before start of E(very) N(ew) GAG (wheeze) E(nglish) - definition fruit

If people are going to come on here and be you know, good, I'm not going to get a look in.

Welcome to the forum! Cracking debut effort.

[pepsib]

Initially getting Royal Engineers to engage can be quite fruity

Initially getting Royal Engineers g r e
g r e to engage = greengage

def - can be quite fruity

not sure if i'm posting these correctly, pse feel free to advise

[phisheep]

You're posting just fine!

[vinod.raman]

Congrats phisheep on your winning debut!

Scramble an egg after a lot of fresh fruit (9)
(AN EGG)* after GREE(-N) {fresh=GREEN, a lot of fresh=GREE}

[Prolixic]

Like what Jack pulled out when cornered! (9)

CD by reference to the well known nursery rhyme, Little Jack Horner.

***Edited to make it clearer that the answer is not a plum but something like it***

[thewizenedgnome]

***EDIT - This is a Down Clue ****

Greek and some Poles choke on English variety of 24 (9)

GR + E E N + GAG (choke) + E
Def: variety of 24
The only clue I can think of that isn't currently searching for fish on the riverbank.

[Gazza]

Old VP, who's nothing to lose, to take on plum development

G(o)re (old Vice-President who's nothing to lose) + engage (take on).
Greengage is a cultivar (development) of the plum.

[dram]

Fruit is healthy food, good for kicking off supper time
'Fruit' = def
'Healthy food' = GREENS, 'good for kicking off supper' = G instead of S
'time' = AGE

Welcome to all the newcomers... I heard about the COW at Big Dave's site too.

[phisheep]

Just a quick note: I'm trying to work through clues as they are submitted, so I can be timely on Friday. So if you edit an entry, could you drop me a PM so I don't miss the change? Otherwise there is a danger you will be judged by my scathing (?) commentary on your first attempt.

Prolixic - I just picked up your edit fortuitously, hence the note. EDIT: and your other one!

[Boaz]

Tree frog's back to fight again! (9)
Def=Tree
G + RE-ENGAGE

Just to clarify, as I know Anax can get particularly exercised over the inappropriate use of !'s, the ! is just there to spice up the surface!!!

[phisheep]

No such exercising going on this week Boaz - these punctuational niceties are beyond me. Besides, I for one would find repeated frog attacks sufficiently surprising to deserve it.

[Rishi]

Re !
I am convinced that Boaz did not twist his arm by trying to give himself a pat on his back.

[anax]

Re !
I am convinced that Boaz did not twist his arm by trying to give himself a pat on his back.

Well... to be honest, if I was judging I might have mentioned it. On the other hand, since "re-engage" doesn't really mean "to fight again" it could be argued that the exclamation points to a liberty being taken with a definition, so to my mind it would probably be OK.

[Boaz]

Well... to be honest, if I was judging I might have mentioned it.

Might?!

On the other hand, since "re-engage" doesn't really mean "to fight again" it could be argued that the exclamation points to a liberty being taken with a definition, so to my mind it would probably be OK.

Hmmm, I was going for 'to fight again / re-engage the enemy' which I certainly wouldn't object to if I came across in a crossword, or judging the work of others. Still, viva the difference.

And although I must admit to occasionally using the ! to indicate 'look how clever this clue is' (see Bimbette for example), I don't think the simples construction really justifies it in this case. It really is there to add a bit of colour to the surface.

[boxwood]

Ecological genetics' 'first generation' fruit (9)
Def.= fruit
(Ecological = GREEN) + (genetics' first = G) + generation = AGE

[pepsib]

The answer could be so sweet, it's a simple guess i'd say

simple - green
guess - gage ( gauge) say

[anax]

Tree that’s common and still English (9)
GREEN (n. common) GAG (to still/suppress) E(nglish)

[Prolixic]

Dear Uncle, that is queer, you're really straight, I hear?

DD:

(Dear uncle ie)* (queer) = Reine Claude

Really straight (plumb) sounds like (I hear) plum

[anax]

German soldiers attack Washington (9)
G (German) RE ENGAGE
"Washington" is a variety of greengage.

[anax]

Free range egg white ultimately used as dumpling ingredient (9)
*RANGE EGG + (whit)E

[dram]

Enlist again, chasing money for jam (9)

Enlist again = REENGAGE chasing (after) G (money)

[Boaz]

24 is a good age to show off a party top (9)
Down clue.
G + AGE 'showing off'' (displaying) a GREEN top

[Prolixic]

Ran, for example, three times about tree (9)

Def: Tree

(ran + eg + eg + eg)* (about)

[vinod.raman]

A plum contract pursuing good engineers (9)
Def:A plum, contract(v.)=ENGAGE, good=G, engineers=RE (pursuing=following)

[anax]

Getting desperate now… (Down clue):
“Did you hear the one about the environmentalist whose bottom could be a bit fruity?” (9)
GREEN GAG + (whos)E

[phisheep]

No, can't say I did. How does it go?

[boxwood]

Good time to go after unripe fruit (9)
Def.= fruit
(under-ripe = GREEN) + (good = G) + (time = AGE)

[dram]

Naive ‘expert’ loses head after starting to get in a jam (9)

Naive = GREEN; ‘expert loses head after starting to get' = G+ (s)AGE; 'a jam' is def.

Many thanks Prolixic and Boaz for pointing out the missing letter from the first effort

[dram]

At 24, girl promised to marry again, burning ex-husband’s last letter (9)

At 24 = def; girl = G; 'promised to marry again' = REENGAGE(d), 'burning ex-husband's last letter' = subtract the d

[Prolixic]

Boil an egg and inwardly regret it's soft on the outside and hard on the inside (9)

boil (an egg (r)egre(t))*

Def: It's soft on the outside and hard on the inside.

Secretly ogre engages Victoria's cousin perhaps (9)

Hidden word (secretly)

Victoria is a well known variety of plum to which the Greengage is related.

[thewizenedgnome]

Variety of Victoria? King George, even in the good old days, has grand time. (9)

Def = Variety of Victoria ( I have checked that Victoria does not need 'plum' on the end!)
King George = George Rex (as per usual)
even in the good old days = e'en
grand = G
Time = age

GR EEN G AGE

The Taming of the Otter. g'night!.

[kororareka]

Gee whiz! I turn my back for a few days and when I come back, it takes me half an hour to read all the entries and find all my good ideas have already been used. So, I'm left with my bad ideas:

What on earth could be in the orchard grange? Gee whiz! (9)

GRANGEGEE* with "whiz" the anagrind
def: "what on earth could be in the orchard" as in what could be on the ground in the orchard.
"Grange" on the surface refers to a barn rather than the big house next to it.
The "!" excuses the nounal anagrind, the "?" in the anagrist, overall liberty and anything else you care to add.

On edit: I just thought of a way to get rid of the question mark:

What on earth culd be in the orchard grange? No! Huh? Gee Whiz!

Hmm... now I need to get rid of the first "!".

[kororareka]

Oh, sod it! Here's my Graham Greene clue (nothing novel here):

Almost stupified novellist imbibes sort of homemade wine (9)

GREEN[GAG(a)]E the "that" being implied between "stupified" and "novellist".
The recipe for greengage wine can be found at http://www.wine-making-guides.com/greengage_wine.html

[phisheep]

LAST ORDERS!

I aim to get the judging posted about 6pm today so I can have an evening without greengages for a change. The possibles list is fairly short so there is every opportunity to lob in a stupendous last-minute winner. Anything that hits here by about 5 is in with a chance and I may be able to accommodate a few stragglers after that, but don't push your luck!

[pepsib]

'I say is this a common indicator for fruit'?

common - green
indicator - gage/gauge (say)

[kororareka]

Pressure, pressure. What about

Fruit loop agreeing, without iota of imagination, to empty guillotine (9)

def = fruit
"loop", as in loop the loop, is instruction to aerobatically or otherwise manoeuvre AGREEING, minus the I (being the square root of -1, an imaginary number), "to" as in "next to" G(uillotin)E.

Personally, I couldn't eat another greengage even if you called it a mirabelle.

[anax]

Drug – crack – never good when turned into fruit (9)
E(drug) GAG(crack) NE’ER G(good) <
Just experimenting with “turned into” to suggest “reversed, to become the answer…”

[Prolixic]

Down clue:

Fruit fly lacks nerve to land on gauntlet (9)

Def: Fruit

Fly = Greenbottle, lacking nerve (bottle) = Green
Gauntlet = Gage (something thrown down as a challenge)

[phisheep]

A wonderful set of submissions this week for a pretty unpromising word: enough dodgy ones for me to get my claws out, and enough super ones to make a real fight of it. Need to whittle this lot down somehow, so let’s have a race …

Under starter’s orders, AND THEY’RE OFF in the forty-third cryptic clue championship steeplechase. Have your betting slips at the ready. The course was laid out on Saturday and is in fine condition. Your race commentator is phisheep – do forgive him if he waffles, he is new to this stuff and not too hot on technicalities.

A few runners seem to have got stuck in the parade ring having thought they were entered for the General Knowledge Handicap:

Prolixic: Reine Claude's "24" - "The Colour of the 9" (9)
Seems to me to be a couple of straight-ish definitions, nothing really cryptic. A Google clue. Besides, it reminds me of Claude Rains in Casablanca, which confused the hell out of me – I guess that is what is with all the quote marks?.
Prolixic(2): Like what Jack pulled out when cornered! (9)
More general-knowledgey than cryptic. And indirect to boot. Doesn’t work for me, sorry.

Nothing to separate the rest yet, as they come galloping towards Dodgy Definition Ditch, wouldn’t be surprised to see a few take a trip here, yes, there they go:

Rishi: Choice to leader of gang to take part again (9)
‘Choice’ really won’t do as a definition here. It might be plum, but it isn’t greengage – in the same way that ‘trail’ might be dog but isn’t poodle. Shame, because the wordplay is tidy, and the surface is promising if not very polished - ‘to’ reads a bit oddly, for example.
Prolixic(1): Jack, when cornered, may have pulled out one of these? (9)
“He put in his thumb and pulled out a greengage” – that’s not how I remember it. Not actually a bad clue, but for the wrong word. I know you changed it later, but I have left in prior versions of clues –on the off-chance that someone edits their clue only to make it worse, like you did!
Pepsib(1): The choice is sweet, it's a simple guess I'd say (9)
Could have been a touch better than Rishi’s (above) because you qualified ‘choice’ with ‘sweet’, but the word ‘the’ fatally makes choice a noun rather than an adjective, and as a noun it can’t even mean plum. I’m afraid you caught a trailing leg on that fence, but your later version is still in the running.
Boaz: Tree frog's back to fight again! (9)
Fantastic surface reading and neat wordplay – ‘to fight again’ works for me, despite Anax’s misgivings, especially if you don’t read ‘to fight’ as an infinitive but as an injunction. However, I am very uncomfortable with ‘tree’ unqualified as a definition. This may be harsh, but it has been nagging at me all week – it just feels too broad, Chambers or not. Plus, I thought they grew on bushes. Hands up, folks, who among you would have clued, say, GRAPEFRUIT as a tree? See. I rest my case. Nasty tumble you took there, sir.
Anax: Tree that’s common and still English (9)
I like the surface reading, it just sort of swishes over you all innocuously – gentle, precise wordplay too, but is common really =green? Pity about the tree.
Prolixic: Gardener oddly no good with mature tree? (9)
So nearly perfect. Neat dissection and slightly tantalising wordplay (I kept getting ‘ageD’, forgetting that mature might be a verb). Nicely appropriate reading too. If only you’d put ‘fruit’ or ‘fruit tree’, which would have read just as well on the surface. Damn trees.
Anax: Free range egg white ultimately used as dumpling ingredient (9)
I am not sure whether Anax is testing me, trying to pull the other leg, or has gone off his rocker. I do like ‘free range egg’ – though Prolixic got there first, but here is a dumpling lesson: the ingredients are flour, suet and water. That is how you dumple. You can put into a dumpling anything else you like such as beef, asparagus, chilli, even gravel, ball-bearings or budgerigars if you wish – but that doesn’t make them a dumpling ingredient. It might be an ingredient of greengage dumplings, but that would rather give the game away. Rotten definition, and since there are no eggs in dumplings either, rotten reading. I suppose the wordplay is OK. (Tuesday, grumpy, bad day at the office)
Anax: German soldiers attack Washington (9)
I was beginning to think Anax was doomed this week, until this gem came along. Every part works beautifully and I love the reading. But, and it’s a huge but: is ‘Washington’ a fair definition? Technically it will pass as a definition-by-example, but I am concerned that very few people will know it, and it probably won’t be in a standard dictionary (not reading forwards anyway), and it isn’t even on a Wikipedia disambiguation page – so the only way of getting this would be to get the answer first. I’d never ever have got this, and when I looked up the answer, sure – I’d appreciate and even love the clue. But I’d still feel cheated. Perhaps it would get by in a specialist horticultural magazine, but that isn’t really what we are aiming at. Anax is still doomed, probably.
Prolixic: Boil an egg and inwardly regret it's soft on the outside and hard on the inside (9)
Well, it is (soft on the outside etc), and the wordplay and reading are a delight. But again is it fair? It is a very broad definition that includes sofas, benign dictators and nut fudge, so one that would probably throw me completely had I not been thinking greengages already. Borderline, but probably unfair.
Kororareka: What on earth could be in the orchard grange? Gee whiz! (9)
I was looking forward with some trepidation to Koro’s entries. He did not fail to not disappoint. Add an extra ‘z’ to make ‘whizz’ and I suspect you could have saved yourself a bit of worry about the anagram indicator. But the definition is one of those that leaves my head spinning trying to (a) work out what is going on and (b) think of a different way of doing it. Most distracting – and I’d expect nothing less. Either ‘on earth’ or ‘grange’ is superfluous – hope it isn’t grange, otherwise there goes the anagram, but lose ‘on earth’ and there’s a clue already. I wish I had though of gee whizz..


That was nasty, we lost a few fancied runners and a couple more just managed to scramble over – not sure how - but for now the field is turning sharply around the corner to Wobbly Wordplay Wall … OH NO … there go:

Prolixic: Fresh pot of jam, a potential source? (9)
Nice idea, but the definition words don’t read at all straightforwardly, as you know. My biggest niggle is the obscure use of ‘pot’ to mean ‘gage’ going by ‘marijuana’ – I don’t mind hard words in the solution, where you can check them, but something like this where you’d have to read a dictionary backwards in intermediate wordplay leaves me cold.
Anax: Out of revenge five angry nurses prepare to throw fruit (9)
Image of the week! A delightful reading and smart dissection, but is ‘prepare to throw’ really ‘gag’? Throw up maybe, but even then it is something you are inducing or triggering rather than preparing for. Unless I am missing something this doesn’t hit the spot (that tickly one at the back of the throat) for me.
Pepsib: Eating this becomes a common indicator perhaps that one is full (9)
It is that last bit that throws me. I don’t know that anyone actually uses ‘green gauge’ in that way – so while it is a nice thought when you explain it, for me it doesn’t add anything to what is otherwise on the way to being a workmanlike clue. (Of course, you know this already – that’s why you put two question marks in your post!).
Pepsib(2): The answer could be so sweet, it's a simple guess I'd say (9)
Definition is better in this version, but perhaps a bit broad – there are an awful lot of sweet things. The wordplay needs some attention too, I’m not sure that simple=green – inexperienced, young, callow, environmental etc would do better; and estimate would be better than guess to mean ‘gauge’. See what I mean? It’s a matter of fiddling with the words until they are precise enough – probably best done before you get too attached to a particular reading of the clue, as it is just horrible if you do it later and the whole thing falls to bits.
Dram: Enlist again, chasing money for jam (9)
Dram informs me that money=grand=G. Can’t see that is any justification myself, since it could just have easily been money=pony=P giving PREENGAGE. I don’t mind wordplay being ambiguous, that is half the fun, but not when it could indicate nearly any letter of the alphabet (shilling, pound, dollar, yen etc etc). I will have to count that as wobbly unless someone corrects me. Otherwise the clue works nicely.
Dram(1): Naive ‘expert’ loses head in a jam (9)
You can tell Dram is a Management Consultant. He has submitted wordplay that fails to address the whole solution, since GREEN + (s)AGE comes to GREENAGE. There is a G missing. Doubtless he would say that this means it is 89% correct which is pretty good going. Not in my book it isn’t. (Hah! You deserve this, since you didn’t tell me you’d edited it – new version appears later on)
Dram: At 24, girl promised to marry again, burning ex-husband’s last letter (9)
There is a stray ‘at’ at the beginning, which doesn’t help the definition. But it is the wordplay that most bothers me. I don’t think that promising to marry someone amounts to an engagement – not unless they accept, and when it’s a girl they usually accept rather than promise anyway. And re-engaging would anyway be promising (if it were promising) ‘again to marry’ rather than ‘to marry again’, and only then if it is to the same bloke which it clearly isn’t since she burnt the other bloke’s letter. I don’t believe you quite thought this lot through … (or maybe just possibly I overanalysed it a touch). The result is that although the clue reads well, it doesn’t lead to the wordplay that you think it does.
Kororareka: Almost stupefied novelist imbibes sort of homemade wine (9)
As a way of cluing ‘gag’ this makes a pleasant change from all the joking, choking and throwing up that we’ve had. Had a bit of trouble, though, working out who was imbibing what wordwise. Does GAG GREENE IMBIBES really put the GAG in the middle? Not sure. It is a least a bit clunky, but I am by no means convinced that it deserves to fall here – we’ll pretend it was the horse’s fault.
Prolixic: Fruit fly lacks nerve to land on gauntlet (9)
Aha! A fruit fly at last! Unfortunately, this clue gets me to BLUEGLOVE or something like that. I like the ‘lacking nerve’ construction, but needs a better way of getting to the particular fly. Either that or a smarter solver. And Gage seems likely to be a reverse dictionary job to me.


Oh dearie me, they are dropping off the course like anvils from scaffolding. This could be anybody’s. There they go up Tinkers’ Hill at the far side of the course, and a few are falling behind the field - clearly haven’t quite been trained to a peak:

Prolixic: Free range egg - last one may be eaten? (9)
I just love ‘free range egg’, but ‘may be eaten’ is rather too broad a definition and the middle is a bit clunky, suggesting the last one of a singular egg.
Prolixic(1): Taken to a WI jamming session? Olive has good time! (9)
So nearly marvellous. Fine wordplay but the definition isn’t quite there. WI seems superfluous, perhaps you wanted ‘jam session’, needs a bit more pectin in it.
Prolixic(2): Olive's good time - to be taken to a WI jamming session, perhaps?(9)
A wee bit smoother, perhaps – but my feeling is that it’s the definition that needs work. It may be better than I think, as I’ve been distracted by the suspicion that there is a good musical clue lurking under the surface of this one somewhere, with Olive as the drummer keeping good time etc etc jam session blah blah.
Pepsib(2): I say is this a common indicator for fruit? (9)
That’s more like it. You are getting there. I’m still not certain about common=green, but that aside, I’d just question whether you need the first five words at all – I think it might work without them if you just slid another word in – such as ‘fresh sounding indicator for fruit’?.


There seems to be a bit of a kerfuffle out on the course there – one of the horses looks to have collapsed under its own weight, well away from any of the usual fences. Struggling to see who it is …. ah, yes:

Prolixic: Dear Uncle, that is queer, you're really straight, I hear? (9)
Extraordinary - I really was not expecting this! It has the great, and possibly the only, merit of being uproariously funny when you have spent half a week with fruit bushes. The front half is a tidy anagram leading circuitously via a (French botanical?) dictionary to the answer, while the back half homophonically alludes to rather than clues - since ‘plumb’ is more vertical than it is straight - something that is not the answer. In short, it is a double definition with the fatal flaw that it defines two different things. On balance I think that is probably fatal enough. (Tuesday, less grumpy, much better after reading this).


And we’re coming to the last fence, it is the infamous Editor’s Chair, for clues that are nearly there but not quite, and need a few flicks of the whip. Stumbling here won’t lose you the race, you will just feel the pain for a few strides.

But wait, what’s that? There are two horses galloping up from behind! It is Anax and Prolixic! They must have remounted after the first fence. Come and join us, chaps.

Anax: Tree that’s common and still English (9)
Prolixic: Gardener oddly no good with mature tree? (9)
I thought we’d lost you. But you’re right, ‘tree’ isn’t actually essential to your clues – here, take some fruit instead and God speed. No, Boaz can’t come too, there is no such thing as a fruit frog. Don’t tell me you just left him lying there?
Pepsib: Initially getting Royal Engineers to engage can be quite fruity (9)
And I bet it got the old Sappers rising as well! This one made me smile. Wordplay might be a bit obvious, though – and I’m not quite sure what the word ‘quite’ is doing there.
Anax: “Did you hear the one about the environmentalist whose bottom could be a bit fruity?” (9)
Same quibble over ‘a bit’ as over pepsib’s ‘quite’. Besides that, the final quote marks probably need moving to after environmentalist for it to make sense – but that would spoil the surface a bit. Still not sure what to make of this one, I wouldn’t feel cheated by it and it raises a smile – but for some reason it doesn’t grab me.
Gazza: Old VP, who's nothing to lose, to take on plum development (9)
’Plum development’ is superb! Silly quibble, but Gore isn’t that old surely – I found myself iffing and butting over those first two words, maybe there’s a better way of doing that bit. A really nice take on the target.
Boxwood: Ecological genetics' 'first generation' fruit (9)
Not sure if generation=age quite works. And what is it with all those quote marks, eh? But it’s a neat clue for all that, with satisfyingly long words, some of them bigger than marmalade.
Boaz: 24 is a good age to show off a party top (8)
Boaz comes good at last with this beautiful construction, slightly marred only by a couple of stray ‘a’s and the fact he can’t count the number of letters in the answer (he did edit it later, but without telling me, so it doesn’t count – doesn’t count, geddit?), which led me to rip up my potential shortlist for the third time and resolve to leave it to the last minute on Friday. Excellent disguised use of a referential definition.
Vinod.raman: A plum contract pursuing good engineers (9)
Very neat, this. I am just a little bit fuddled as to whether engineers chase contracts or whether it is the other way round. It reads just fine so long as you don’t start thinking too hard about it!
Kororareka: Fruit loop agreeing, without iota of imagination, to empty guillotine (9)
The concept works, and the surface is marvellous. Not sure about ‘loop’ though – and ‘imagination’ seems not quite right, as iota would do the wordplay job on its own. But given the way the clue as a whole reads I would probably not tackle it until the end, so I would have plenty of checking letters! Totally bananas, but I can see that I would enjoy solving it even if I was not quite sure how.
Anax: Drug – crack – never good when turned into fruit (9)
Last-minute attempt by Anax to avoid a booby prize, and this works beautifully for me with the exception of one thing, the rather lazy use of NEVER as NE’ER. If I’d wanted grevengage I’d have said grevengage. Got very close though, and could have pinched it at the end.


As for the rest of the field, they have ridden smoothly and without incident so far, having proper definitions, sane-ish wordplay, decent readings and a bit of polish. I’d be happy to meet any of these in a full grid:

Boaz: 'Plum' Wodehouse finally finishes new joke (9)
Easy for a Wodehouse fan to fall for this one. I must admit I would love to have seen that spare E clued as something like “Empress of Blandings’ snout”, going the whole hog, so to speak.
Prolixic: Author includes joke - a fruity one? (9)
Not your best idea, but your best complete clue (now second best, see below) from an imaginative though mixed set of entries. The two rather broad definitions (one partial, one whole) mean you’d probably need some checking letters to get started, but it will work.
Old Scroat: Before the start of every new wheeze, crazy Reg had English fruit (9)
Rescued from ploddingness by the enticing character of Crazy Reg, the vegetarian rapscallion. It’s the 1930’s flavour that grabs me.
vinod.raman: Scramble an egg after a lot of fresh fruit (9)
Another atmosphere piece … ah, early autumn breakfasts. Nicely unobvious way of chopping up the target word as well, which makes the wordplay a touch more difficult to grasp.
thewizenedgnome: Greek and some Poles choke on English variety of 24 (9)
It never feels quite right when stray nationalities crop up in crosswords to knock off a pesky bit of wordplay, but here the Greeks, Poles and English keep each other company. I’m just amazed nobody else used ‘choke’ yet. I wonder, is it just coincidence that choke and joke both synonymise to ‘gag’ or is there some etymology behind it? Thewizenedgnome has defensively pointed out this is a down clue – I suspect there must be a bunch of crossword pedants who insist that ‘on’ can only mean ‘on top of’ – I shudder to think happens when they try to put a conservatory on their house.
Dram: Fruit is healthy food, good for kicking off supper time(9)
On the surface this looks rather straightforward, but it took me ages to work out exactly what was going on in the middle few words, even with an explanation. A very nifty little bit of wordplay that. Perhaps because I spent so long on this one it has sort of grown on me.
Prolixic: Ran, for example, three times about tree (9)
Regardless of everything I said earlier about trees, this one is so marvellous a use that I could not but let it scramble over the first fence. Still don’t like trees, but there isn’t much else you could run round that is relevant. Goes to show the rules aren’t as absolute as all that. Makes me wonder whether I should have done the same with Boaz’s frog.
Boxwood: Good time to go after unripe fruit (9)
Neat and sweet, I like this a lot. Unripe is perfect.
Dram(2): Naive ‘expert’ loses head after starting to get in a jam (9)
Unfortunately nowhere near as smooth as the incorrect version! Still, it is a nice enough reading. Prolixic gets points for an assist on this one - not sure that is actually allowed.
Prolixic: Secretly ogre engages Victoria's cousin perhaps (9)
About time we had a hidden word! Love ‘Victoria’s cousin’ – probably about as precise a definition as you’ll get and still nicely misleading.
Thewizenedgnome: Variety of Victoria? King George, even in the good old days, has grand time. (9)
I might have simple tastes, but this appeals to me. It may be tied together with a bit of string between ‘Variety’ and the ‘Good old days’ but that neatly props up the not-quite-precise definition and the slightly hackneyed wordplay. Could have ended up a cat’s cradle, instead I find it rather elegantly done.


As they approach the finish line, it is difficult to see who is in front – they are all bunched up together, there will be a lot of luck in this, but we have a result!

THIRD, by luck rather than judgment (?)
Prolixic: Ran, for example, three times about tree (9)
shoots off clues every five minutes, breaks all the rules at least once and still scrambles round – how does he do it?

SECOND, by a length
Vinod.raman: A plum contract pursuing good engineers (9)
shows you can be original without losing the solver

FIRST by a whisker
Thewizenedgnome: Variety of Victoria? King George, even in the good old days, has grand time. (9)
clunkiness rescued with brilliant application of the crossword equivalent of a hogging truss


Congratulations and the Laxton’s Supreme trophy (slightly tarnished from the nurses’ party) to Thewizenedgnome: who takes the commentary spot next week.

Judge’s Notes

Here’s a couple I prepared earlier:

phisheep: Engage gear without a declutch - it might be jammed. (9)
(ENGAGE GE(a)R)* Angrind=declutch(?!)
This would probably have fallen at the second … or maybe the first

phisheep: Apparently meagre engagement bears fruit (9)
(meaGRE ENGAGEment)
Might just have made it as far as the last fence

phisheep: 24x9? (9)
Cryptic definition, shorthand for: What you might get (?) if you crossed (x) a PLUM (24) with a GOOSEBERRY (9)
I am stupidly proud of this, though doubtless the same sort of thing must have been done before somewhere. Kind of glad I didn’t put the gooseberry at 7d instead of 9d, or you’d all think I had set it up in advance, though it would have made the surface much better.

Memorable Moments:

Anax’s revolting nurses, Pepsib’s seduction of the Sappers, Boaz’s vicious amphibians, speculation as to whether Olive (Prolixic) and Crazy Reg (Old Scroat) may be related by marriage. Free range eggs and the dear queer uncle (Prolixic again) and Koro on the guillotine.

Disasters of the Week

Rishi comes a cropper at the first, but he’ll be back. Reminds me of the old Duke of Albuquerque.

Anax’s series of spectacularly choreographed pratfalls. I think he does it on purpose. Nearly nicked it at the end though, but for a wayward letter ‘V’.

Mystery of the Week

Why is there no ‘f’ in ‘Prolixic’?

On frogs, trees and fairness

The tree thing still niggles me. Trying to rationalise it, I’d say that the breadth of a definition should not, in itself, be a cause of difficulty in a clue - so that where there is a real choice of definitions, go for one with a sensible scope. That’s not to say that definitions can’t be misleading, and there’s more leeway when the definition is essential to the reading of the clue - but on the borderline are cases where it is essential to a judicious phrase but not the whole reading. Boaz fell right on the border, and I really must apologise for leaving him lying there for what was partly dramatic effect rather than analysis of his clue.

The other thing about fairness that this competition highlighted for me is the use of dictionaries. It isn’t enough that a word is in a dictionary, there has, as least in intermediate wordplay, to be a sensible way of getting it out – hence my point about not expecting someone to use a dictionary backwards. That had never occurred to me before.

It was very noticeable to me, and quite a surprise, how the most potentially brilliant of clues fell early, while those that made it all the way round were mostly (I mean this with no disrespect) more straightforward. Brilliance and fairness seem to be enemies, though that is probably more important in getting the balance of a whole crossword right rather than in individual clues. You can get away with a lot if there are checking letters. Probably depends also on what publication you are aiming at, but I don’t really know much about that, being a staunch Telegraph man.

Subjective fairness played a big part in the judging, otherwise Anax’s German invasion would probably have been way up there. Essentially construction and fairness got me to the shortlist of 11, imagination narrowed it to 5 and the top three was last minute gut feel.


Over to you thewizenedgnome:, have fun!

[Boaz]

Best judgage ever. A truly astonishing write-up.

[thewizenedgnome]

Seriously impressive round up Phisheep and many thanks fir the vote if confidence.
If I were judging it might have gone another way particularly with your offerings ncluded.
I'm currently enjoying some cold drinks after a day's golf so I will look to set tomorrow morning having selected something apposite.
Well done all!
thewizenedgnome

[phisheep]

I think if anyone else were judging it might have gone a different way! I tried to put some objectivity into the process, but at the end it came down whim. The hardest thing I found was discarding some brilliant-but-unsolvable (to me) ones.

I guess it is a bit like chess, a brilliant chess move only works if your opponent is smart enough to see what its implications are, it might not work at all against an ordinary player.

Best of luck for the coming week.

[pepsib]

well done phisheep, i don't think i ever want to win, i could never do what you just have, thanks for the constructive criticism - I think

[phisheep]

I hope it was helpful, pepsib,

One of the reasons I laid it out the way I did was so that newcomers like you could get a bit more insight into what was going on (in particular, I tried to place your clues next to other ones by more experienced setters to show that other people make the same mistakes and it isn't just you!). It's very brave of you to join in and, honestly, given how fast you progressed with the solving side, this will all seem easy-peasy in about six months if you stick with it!

[pepsib]

thank you and good night

[thewizenedgnome]

given how fast you progressed with the solving side, this will all seem easy-peasy in about six months if you stick with it!

Ditto that pepsib! I've been staring at the Telegraph for years and was satisfied with solving the puzzle about 50% of the time. Big Dave's 'blog and this excellent Clue Writing thing has forced me to think a great deal more about what I see in clues. I've been completely re-energised.

[dram]

Thanks you so much phisheep for such a well thought-through and entertaining write-up. It was clearly going to be a struggle to separate them and I really got something from the way you approached some of the subtleties of what's fair and what's not.

Given that only about half an hour elapsed from incorrect clue to tip-offs from Prolixic and Boaz (I definitely think that's allowed as it typifies the friendly and helpful nature of the forum) to corrected version, I was staggered that you had already clocked it!

[Rishi]

Thanks for the notes.
Yes, my clue was flawed. Must have had my mind elsewhere.
Has never happened in any published crossword. Thank God.

[kororareka]

Dear Uncle, that is queer, you're really straight, I hear?

I forgot to say, some spectacular rhymage there, which you almost managed to sneak past the judge. Keep up the good work. I seem to have forgotten how I used to do that. I must get back into the habit, so to speak.

P.S. Congrats to phisheep on a truly gargantuan judging effort .

[phisheep]

Given that only about half an hour elapsed from incorrect clue to tip-offs from Prolixic and Boaz (I definitely think that's allowed as it typifies the friendly and helpful nature of the forum) to corrected version, I was staggered that you had already clocked it!

You got a bit unlucky with that one - I'd have let it pass if I hadn't already written a satisfyingly acerbic response that I didn't want to waste (I'm an ex-consultant, so I know what it is like!).

I'm nowhere near so mean as to really disallow help though. I'll need it myself someday.